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midnight_rider
03-23-2008, 03:10 PM
I havnt done any searching for this so if this is repeated somewhere will someone please point me in the right direction. I have a EJ20 shortblock sitting in my garage that Im getting ready to build. I wanted to start a discussion on taking the right steps to build a solid motor with decent power (apply your definition of decent power here). Also Id like to hear some experiences on building these blocks i.e. what worked for you/what didnt work etc.

crashtke
03-23-2008, 06:05 PM
Ok, I am not sure if you know the difference between open, closed and semi-closed blocks, but to start with the EJ20 is an open deck block. While it is capable of some decent power, it is not really the best design for a high hp engine build. If you look, you can find the EJ257 short blocks real cheap on occasion and it is much better suited for a build as it is a semi-closed deck design and can stand a lot more power. You also get the advantage of having a forged crank and rods as well as larger displacement for better spooling, etc.

Just my 2c

nicad
03-23-2008, 06:23 PM
ahem. 205 has forged crank and rods, and its open deck design isn't as weak as people like to talk it up to be. you can make boat loads of power with it. if you have it, use it and don't sweat it :)

slowwrx
03-23-2008, 08:37 PM
ahem. 205 has forged crank and rods, and its open deck design isn't as weak as people like to talk it up to be. you can make boat loads of power with it. if you have it, use it and don't sweat it :)

The rods are incredibly weak actually and thats usally what fails once you get to about 400hp. The 205 block is okay and should be fine if you want to stay under 500hp. What are your goals.\

Matt

GTscoob
03-23-2008, 09:26 PM
You could throw a 2.5 crank in and get some aftermarket pistons to make a cheap stroker, I think it works out to be around 2.4L.

slowwrx
03-23-2008, 09:33 PM
You could throw a 2.5 crank in and get some aftermarket pistons to make a cheap stroker, I think it works out to be around 2.4L.

2.5 crank with custom pistons and rods will get you something like 2.198 liters of displacement, you should be able to Rev it out quite nicely though. However the cost of the custom pistons and rods will set you back enough that you could have just done a built 2.5 liter.

Matt

crashtke
03-24-2008, 12:11 AM
ahem. 205 has forged crank and rods, and its open deck design isn't as weak as people like to talk it up to be. you can make boat loads of power with it. if you have it, use it and don't sweat it :)

400 at the crank will probably be around 330-345 at the wheels...not a generous amount of power...if you are going to go to the time and expense of building something, why not throw in the cost of the pistons and get a better block that is going to be able to hold more power, spool bigger turbos quicker and MAKE more power...it just makes sense.

nicad
03-24-2008, 12:39 AM
400 at the crank will probably be around 330-345 at the wheels...not a generous amount of power...if you are going to go to the time and expense of building something, why not throw in the cost of the pistons and get a better block that is going to be able to hold more power, spool bigger turbos quicker and MAKE more power...it just makes sense.

right. but it isn't the BLOCK that is the limit here. ;) that's the point I'm trying to make, and everyone has a huge misconception with. an EJ257 is a good block, but not because of its semi closed deck. it's better because of your other mentioned reasons. the 205 will make just as much power for the majority of people, all things considered. 205 blocks can be had for cheap because everyone assumes they are garbage, and you can do great things with them - it just usually goes against the nasioc/subaru group think where people read things and preach them as gospel with no first hand experience. :)

/derail

crashtke
03-24-2008, 08:04 AM
right. but it isn't the BLOCK that is the limit here. ;) that's the point I'm trying to make, and everyone has a huge misconception with. an EJ257 is a good block, but not because of its semi closed deck. it's better because of your other mentioned reasons. the 205 will make just as much power for the majority of people, all things considered. 205 blocks can be had for cheap because everyone assumes they are garbage, and you can do great things with them - it just usually goes against the nasioc/subaru group think where people read things and preach them as gospel with no first hand experience. :)

/derail

The 205 will not make the same hp...put the same combo of parts on it as you do a 205 and in any given combination it will outperform the 205. It's just shear mathematics. It is a 25% increase in displacement for less that you will pay for the forged pistons that go in it. To me it is just a waste to build a 205. That means a whole lot more choices for turbos that can feasably be put on the engine too. I mean if the 257 was not such a readily available option (picked mine up for $300 and it just needed new pistons) then sure go with what is available. Not only that but there IS evidence of cylinder walk on the EJ20 due to the open deck design. No sense putting all that money into a block, nice pistons, hp rods and then having the block split on ya.

End result, if you are just dead set to build the 205, do it, but to me, If you are going to go to all the time and expense of building a motor, putting better components in it, swapping the engine and retuning the car, you will be KICKING yourself if you did not spend a couple hundred more and get a better engine that is capable of MUCH more down the road should you ever want it.

In fact I spoke to Seigel the other day about the 257 and he said the exact same thing about not going with forged pistons on my build. After thinking about it, I had to agree that for an extra $500 or so, the engine would then be able to withstand more in the long run and with an added degree of safety and longevity.

So see if you can sell the short block and pick up a cheap 257 block. I am not saying that there are not some fast cars that are running the EJ20, just that you could have so much more potential with the Ej257, Ej22 or even the Ej207. All better engines for building hp. They are out there and are getting cheaper all the time. If not, well, you will think back to this moment.

crashtke
03-24-2008, 08:10 AM
Oh and plan on a 6 speed or ppg gears if you want the tranny to last after putting some real hp in front of it. That is what I am finishing up before I go big on the hp.

nicad
03-24-2008, 08:53 AM
potential power of the 2.5 versus a 205 isn't in question, nor is it's displacement. it's the perceived weakness of the 205 (the block casting alone).
anyway to get back on track.


to the OP: it can be done easily. drop me a PM and I'll get you in touch with Fred in virginia that made over 400 on his 205.

what goals are you looking for? have you decided on a turbo setup/flowrate? what heads are you going to use? answers to these will help in steering you in the right direction.

slowwrx
03-24-2008, 10:16 AM
potential power of the 2.5 versus a 205 isn't in question, nor is it's displacement. it's the perceived weakness of the 205 (the block casting alone).
anyway to get back on track.


to the OP: it can be done easily. drop me a PM and I'll get you in touch with Fred in virginia that made over 400 on his 205.

what goals are you looking for? have you decided on a turbo setup/flowrate? what heads are you going to use? answers to these will help in steering you in the right direction.


I made 407whp on a Bone Stock EJ205, the block is ok, and it will probably be fine up to about 500hp after that the open deck design may start to show its weakness. The stock Rods are the weak link in the EJ205 then the Pistons then the block. The crank is fine and is pretty much the same crank thats in the ej207s.

midnight_rider
03-24-2008, 04:50 PM
Im not looking to make over 500hp with it. 400 would satisfy me. The engine will be going into a street car.
Oh and plan on a 6 speed or ppg gears if you want the tranny to last after putting some real hp in front of it. That is what I am finishing up before I go big on the hp.
I realize this not what I am concerned with at the moment.

I havnt gotten to turbos, heads... Im open to suggestions...Ive also heard that the stock intake manifold will suffice with alittle bit of work.

Berzerklo
03-24-2008, 05:17 PM
Are you thinking you will use Meth or no?

midnight_rider
03-24-2008, 06:39 PM
I dont really have any experience with meth:eek3:haha sooo I couldnt tell you either way. I know I saw a thread a while back about pros and cons of meth injection. Ill have to do some searching

techlord
03-24-2008, 06:41 PM
I made 407whp on a Bone Stock EJ205, the block is ok, and it will probably be fine up to about 500hp after that the open deck design may start to show its weakness. The stock Rods are the weak link in the EJ205 then the Pistons then the block. The crank is fine and is pretty much the same crank thats in the ej207s.
yo ballah, what snail was driving that 407HP???
any other info on the mods of that much hp on the ej20...PLEASE

crashtke
03-24-2008, 06:51 PM
Another thing to think about is where that hp is made and for how long. You might be able to spin it to 7500 and peak at 400 hp, but not make it until that point. Not saying that was the case with Matt's, just that for usable torque and hp, again, the 2.5 will excel. It is going to make it sooner and over a broader range with ANY turbo than with the 2.0. Look at the map on here of the guy that had the 8cm 20g on the 2.0. Sure it made hp, around 350 something to the wheels if I remember right, but it only made it for like 2000 rpm...from 5-7. Where as the SAME turbo on a 2.5 will probably be close to 400hp and make that over a much broader power band. I just think that with a bit more planning you could be much happier.

As for the block...do some searches. There are people out there that have experienced cylinder walk in the power range that Matt is talking about. His particular observation was that the rods were the weak point, but who knows what else would have gone with prolonged wear on the engine. Much SAFER to have an engine that is known to make over 500 safely with no problems, even if you are only shooting for 400hp. Then you know you are not getting close to the ragged edge. I think about long term reliability as I am not making a race car that the engine will come out 2 or 3 times a season for an overhaul. I am thinking about something that will last as a daily driver and maintain the same reliability as it had when stock, or better!

Again, if you are going through the expense of building a motor, why not do it right in the first place rather than have the potential of having something go wrong that could easily be taken care in the first place. Do you want a car that goes fast from shop to shop being fixed or one that will stay on the road?

crashtke
03-24-2008, 06:53 PM
I made 407whp on a Bone Stock EJ205, the block is ok, and it will probably be fine up to about 500hp after that the open deck design may start to show its weakness. The stock Rods are the weak link in the EJ205 then the Pistons then the block. The crank is fine and is pretty much the same crank thats in the ej207s.

Matt I thought that one of the things that made the 207 able to rev so high was the difference in the design of the crank having additional oil journals? I was under the impression that it was a stronger and better designed crank. There has been quite a lot of analysis of that crank compared to the 205.

crashtke
03-24-2008, 06:57 PM
nothing to see here....

nicad
03-24-2008, 07:06 PM
something to think about.

good work sherlock. I've never built a block in my life :rofl:
don't get so bent out of shape. I agree with you on every point

crashtke
03-24-2008, 07:33 PM
Some quick findings from some of the major players in the Subaru tuning scene like Ron at Axis (great guy btw) Jorge at Riftswrx.com and several others:

Having to do with the cylinders:

In talking to the Rigoli guys they find even the EJ20 cylinder liners (which are much thicker then the 2.5 NA) to oval when used for long times in high HP applications due to open deck. The issue isn't really so much boost as it is cylinder pressures, and I don't know the exact point where it becomes a problem, but for long term use you'll want to keep it pretty tame.

Regarding the ovaling of cylinder liners, I seem to remember that Jorge's original EJ205 had some REALLY bad ovalization going on. I actually have it in my garage still, so I could take a look again, but IIRC it was at least .5-.75mm longer in one direction then the other.

That's correct about the liners.. which goes with the small exchange between Phil (dwx) and Nathan. Even my original stock motor that never saw a day over 17 PSI after 18k miles was out of round in a bad way.

When talking to the guys from ESX and TRP they mentioned that even with pinning the stock liners with dowels they end up with oval cylinders after a few months of use at high HP. The reason they ended up using iron sleeves was to keep the cylinders round.





Dealing with bearings on the 205 from Jorge at Riftswrx:
As for what I want.... I WANT the HP and torque that I had on motor 2.... I WANT a bottom end that can take it... and at this point, one thing becomes clear... the bearings simply are NOT up to the task.

I can only imagine that the amount of torque pushing on that bearing on every combustion stroke just crushes them over time.

Well. I've been trolling these forums for almost 2 years. One thing comes up again and again, sometimes with months between events but it keeps occurring. The bottom end (bearings) are the weak point of these motors. Det seems to be the most common cause of bearing failure. But I suspect other events can happen (low oil pressure or oil starvation along with less than optimal bearing clearances). Both the main and rod bearings.

Counter point from Ron at Axis Racing on the bearings:

Another thing I have seen on some motors, especially the sti engines I have torn down is that the rod bearings wear through the first layer of surfacing extremely fast. It's usually not a problem, but I have seen it none the less.

nicad
03-24-2008, 07:54 PM
look dude, I'm not debating the fact that at high HP for extended times, the cylinders/liners are a problem. you're missing my point, and making a strawman argument. your copy/pasted text from nasioc talks about detonation destroying bearings, low oil pressure, bearing clearances, etc. what does that have to do with the block casting and oval'd walls? nothing. and ron's point is talking about STI ENGINES, aka not the 205. please copy more walls of text to show me how smart you are.

OP said 400HP is fine, he has an EJ20 he wants to build, so just roll with that. If you want to sit here and argue send me a PM so we can stop shitting up this dude's thread over semantics.

If you want to make personal attacks at me about my subaru experience, fine. just PM me.

OP: sorry for crapping up your thread. post back with some more details and I'm sure you'll get some more help.

Matt
03-24-2008, 08:02 PM
Let's STAY on topic here. HE said he's already got AN EJ20....never said if it were a 205 or 207. more than likely a 205, but still. let's try to give him good advice about the motor he HAS, not what you want him to have.

thanks

crashtke
03-24-2008, 08:23 PM
look dude, I'm not debating the fact that at high HP for extended times, the cylinders/liners are a problem. you're missing my point, and making a strawman argument. your copy/pasted text from nasioc talks about detonation destroying bearings, low oil pressure, bearing clearances, etc. what does that have to do with the block casting and oval'd walls? nothing. and ron's point is talking about STI ENGINES, aka not the 205. please copy more walls of text to show me how smart you are.

OP said 400HP is fine, he has an EJ20 he wants to build, so just roll with that. If you want to sit here and argue send me a PM so we can stop shitting up this dude's thread over semantics.

If you want to make personal attacks at me about my subaru experience, fine. just PM me.

OP: sorry for crapping up your thread. post back with some more details and I'm sure you'll get some more help.

Actually it doesn't talk about det alone, but the inherent weakness in the bearing from one point of view and Ron countering it saying that he has not seen this. While he was talking about this in relation to the sti engines (what he deals with most for the obvious reason as that is what people that are making higher hp use) he was saying it in response to the thread about the weakness of the EJ20 engine.

The ovaled walls directly dealt with the possible (yes I say possible as I have no direct experience with this) weakness of the 2.0 casting due to the lack of structural reinforcement (AKA open block vs closed or semi-closed). Again, no direct attacks on you in the information I presented from NASICO, just further information so that the OP can make the most informed decision possible for his motor. These are just some issues that need to be addressed and researched prior to building the 2.0 liter EJ205.


Let's STAY on topic here. HE said he's already got AN EJ20....never said if it were a 205 or 207. more than likely a 205, but still. let's try to give him good advice about the motor he HAS, not what you want him to have.

thanks

Definitely correct, I do apologize for trying to attempt to impart some of the research and knowledge that I have gained from some of the top tuners and engine builders around the country. God forbid I should try to list some of the reasons that he could spend a bit more and have a much safer engine to run on the streets. I am not sure what I was thinking. I will desist.

Ok, sarcasm off. But at least stay neutral in this thread. It is a bulletin board designed for people to have discussions and try to help each other out. That IS what I am trying to do. I have no vested interest in which block he gets other than wanting a fellow Subaru enthusiast to enjoy the potential of his vehicle and save some money and time in the long run from having to rip out a blown engine.

midnight_rider
03-24-2008, 08:56 PM
I didn't think that this would create such a heated debate. While it did get off topic a bit some information on weak points of the engine were pointed out and that can be a helpful way to avoid mistakes in the build. That said I would still like to see some more info on what people have done to make power out of a 2.0 regardless of how much better the 2.5 may be.
I made 407whp on a Bone Stock EJ205, the block is ok, and it will probably be fine up to about 500hp after that the open deck design may start to show its weakness. The stock Rods are the weak link in the EJ205 then the Pistons then the block. The crank is fine and is pretty much the same crank thats in the ej207s.

maybe some word on how you did so and maybe how you would have improved said motor.

nicad
03-24-2008, 09:08 PM
is this a new or used block you have? send japslapr on nasioc a PM. his name is fred, good guy. recently built a 2.0 with great power, but had a valvetrain issue that went south.

a lot of other advice depends largely on what turbo you plan on using. bearing clearance, ring gap, and a host of other valvetrain issues.

WRXCoupe
03-24-2008, 09:28 PM
After reading this I am concerned about my EJ20:eek3::eek3::eek3::eek3:I am working on a conservative 300WHP build will this block support that? I will not be tracking it or doing autocross, just daily driving and some mild touging.

ScoobyMike
03-24-2008, 09:39 PM
After reading this I am concerned about my EJ20:eek3::eek3::eek3::eek3:I am working on a conservative 300WHP build will this block support that? I will not be tracking it or doing autocross, just daily driving and some mild touging.

you will be fine, no need to worry.

Kokopelli
03-24-2008, 09:48 PM
wait for it .....














wait a little longer ....












not quite yet............












it's starting..........
















finally spooled...
time to shift....






Seriously though, before I went with a 2.5 I made 275whp with a vf34. When I went with the 2.5 I still made 275 but the torque jumped by 75+ and came on about 1000 rpms sooner making the overall power band wider. With a 2.0 you need to be able to spin it to 8k to get the same power band. Taking a usdm 2.0 there is going to cost some serious change. Finding an ej207 like GTScoobs would be a better approach.


FWIW I have 1 2.0 longblock and a 2.0 short block laying around and I am not even tempted to try to build them. I have done the math and it doesn't work out well.

ScoobyMike
03-24-2008, 09:58 PM
I believe wrxguy made very low 300's with this 2.0 and 34 and motor held up fine...

GTscoob
03-24-2008, 10:32 PM
I'm a fan of my 207, not gonna lie. Next time you're up in Atlanta I'll show you what a 2.0 with AVCS can do, its not quite the low end torque of a 2.5 but the motor revs so fast that you dont really notice it. If you're going to build up a 2.0, at least be sure and get some heads/cams/TGV deletes done while the motor is out of the car to maximize high-rev airflow.

What all the 2.5 vs 2.0 pissing matches on nasioc have come down to is if you're the type of person who downshifts to get into the powerband you'll be fine with a 2.0. If you're the kind of person who likes to leave the car in 4th at 35 and punch the gas to accellerate, get the 2.5.

I wish there were more local big turbo 2.0 guys to show that decent power can be made with less displacement. I've gotta commend you, most guys want to build overkill engines, you've got a modest goal and the stock 205 block should be fine with a decent bottom end in it. Be sure to budget some money for a quality tune.

Cool_____
03-24-2008, 10:58 PM
I'm making 350 hp and tq on my bone stock Ej205 engine and have been for 80K miles. Zero issues.

slowwrx
03-25-2008, 03:01 PM
I didn't think that this would create such a heated debate. While it did get off topic a bit some information on weak points of the engine were pointed out and that can be a helpful way to avoid mistakes in the build. That said I would still like to see some more info on what people have done to make power out of a 2.0 regardless of how much better the 2.5 may be.


maybe some word on how you did so and maybe how you would have improved said motor.

Ill post more about the 407whp and what all was done to the car later when I have more time.

Matt

Cool_____
03-25-2008, 04:29 PM
Slowwrx's bugeye had a GT30R on it when it made 407 whp.

Berzerklo
03-25-2008, 05:32 PM
A bone stock 2.0L with a VF39 and exhaust and injectors with a tune will put you to about 320 crank and 260 wheel hp. If you want to get fancy, you can get a turbo inlet pipe and a FMIC and maybe a EWG and that is good for another 20-30 hp. Throw a meth injection kit on that you will be close to your 400 hp goal without any work on the block. Once you get close to these numbers you will be straining your 5MT so have some money on hand for better gears or a six speed. If you are going to go with the 2.0 L my limited experience tells me you should spend the money on maybe an upgraded bottom end and spend the rest on well planned goodies and some quality tuning.

Mad Mallard
03-25-2008, 06:37 PM
just curious if anyone knows, the wrc homologation engine... is it closed deck?

midnight_rider
03-25-2008, 07:20 PM
The block is a used bone stock SB. I bought it from a member on here for $100. He said he pulled it so he could do a ej257 build so I believe there was nothing wrong with it but I will still go through it before I spend any money building it. So what Im seeing is that I should build the bottom end get a big turbo wtih the proper parts to compensate and get a quality tune. Any details on what parts to use for the bottom end maybe turbo recommendations?

Berzerklo
03-25-2008, 07:37 PM
Can't help you with the engine internals, but again with a Turbo you kinda have to decide if you want a little bit lower hp numbers with a larger powerband or if you want just high hp numbers. GTScoob has a twinscroll on his his 207 and that thing is NUTS. When they were doing the swap he said they saw almost 5 psi of boost from just revving the motor in neutral. Coolrex said you can put a GT30R on a 2.0L and get 400 hp, but I bet that takes forever to spool... so again you have to decide what characteristics you want out of this motor. If you want something in the middle you could look at a larger twinscroll from deadbolt? Or if you want a cheap turbo so you can save money for a Meth kit (Blindfold has one for sale I think) you can go for something less exotic like a VF39 or a VF34. I have a VF39 on my car and I love it, but it is admittedly mild. If I were you I would look into a decent sized twinscroll.

nicad
03-25-2008, 08:27 PM
just curious if anyone knows, the wrc homologation engine... is it closed deck?

from what I recall, the shortblock is closed deck. I think I saw it in a background shot of an "engineering the world rally" special. however the car is it based on for homologation is of course the ej207 - semi closed. not really sure of the details when it comes to engine usage for the homologation rules. I assume it would have to be the same general design, but that's probably about it

GTscoob
03-26-2008, 07:28 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v495/Japslapr/My%20Subbie/FRED.jpg

This is a built 2.0 owned by Japslapr on nasioc. 2.0, 8.8 CR, some big cams, SZ55 turbo, 110 octane.

Looks like a killer powerband, has to be a lot of fun to drive.

crashtke
03-26-2008, 09:16 PM
I guess it all is what you are into...it does not come on until 5k then goes out to 7500. 2.5k in rpms vs something that will rev out from 3000 all the way to 7500. I would much rather have 4500 rpms of power than 2 for a street car. Is it likely fast? YEAH! But is it nice streetable power...not to me.

WJM
03-27-2008, 09:45 AM
Matt I thought that one of the things that made the 207 able to rev so high was the difference in the design of the crank having additional oil journals? I was under the impression that it was a stronger and better designed crank. There has been quite a lot of analysis of that crank compared to the 205.

Crank, AVCS, Cams.

However, all 207's have forged rods and pistons (later versions have Hyperutectic like EJ257/255). Version 6 has non-AVCS heads. before that, all V1~5 engines were variants of the EJ20x closed deck medium cast block. Most commonly the G, H and K variants. Version 6 started the EJ205 in the WRX. Cast rods and pistons.

Cranks are of the same strength. ALL SUBARU EJ/EG/EZ crankshafts are forged. The last engine SUBARU built for the market that did not have forged cranks were the EA82/EA81/EA71 series of engines. They were cast-sintered iron cranks. Limit was about 400 crank hp before they broke.

However, many people are running modified block oiling systems on the stock crank oiling for USDM engines and spinning to 8000 with no problems.

The factory 207 w/7800~8100 redline only has the crank oil differences from an OEM engineering standpoint, not a motorpsorts standpoint. The block oiling system mods w/stock crank comes from the motorsports side of engineering. Both work as long as proper care is taken.

just curious if anyone knows, the wrc homologation engine... is it closed deck?

Starts out its life as either a Spec C or Type RA engine, the EJ207. Both are the same mechanically. Its Semi-closed. Then prodrive does whatever they do to it within the rules.


Back on topic here, the best way to 'build' an EJ205 is to start here with these questions:

1. How much power do you want?
2. How high do you want to rev it?
3. How much money can you spend on it?


Since you've already got the block, I'll list what would be the best approach to a 'hot' EJ205 for the street that's reliable. Keep in mind here I'm ignoring money and some common sense for the sake of keeping the EJ205 block.

Tear down the block, bore to 92.5MM. Get Mahle 4032 pistons.
Get some well known high quality forged rods (many makers here).
New stock crank unless the one in there is perfect.
ACL main and rod bearings (I'd say subaru ones, but the ACL's are 1/4 as much and are the same thing)
If you are reving to 7500, get the 11mm pump. If 8000 or more, 12mm.
Have Top Speed do their trick block oiling modifications, supply them with the pump as well for proper shimming and modification to the pump as well.
Find some AVCS heads, complete. Preferably the Spec C/Type RA heads. If you want lots more power, find AVCS compatible cams for the heads.

Make sure to use the factory service manual for assembling the block if you are doing this yourself.

Now you'll need other supporting mods. TGV deletes, injectors, turbo, exhaust, intake, fuel pump, EMS, etc etc....

You'll have to get a JDM ECU or a Hydra to make the AVCS work. The AEM will run it as well, but you'll need custom wiring and a tuner who believes the AEM will run the AVCS and can tune the AVCS from a basemap for the Version 7+ engines. (SS doesnt believe). I know it will, rally cars around the world are doing it.

At this point, 500whp seems to be the limit on the stock EJ205 block. Thats when the cyl walls start walking around wondering what they are going to do next.

I dont know and have not heard of a limit on the 207 yet...nor the 257/255.

Cool_____
03-27-2008, 11:21 AM
Just let me chime in and say this. There is NO point in revving out an engine unless you have a turbo that is HUGE since the tq curves are falling hard after 7000 rpms in 'most' cases.

WJM
03-27-2008, 11:23 AM
Those 'most cases' being proper lack of head/cam airflow.

WRXCoupe
03-27-2008, 01:21 PM
Wow this would be a good sticky! For me more money seems like the first mod!

With that being said regarding those of us who are stuck with the EJ20 block on a budget, what are some ways(if any) to I guess bullet proof the EJ20 for conservative HP like around 300whp? (which just happens to be my goal:naughty:).

WJM
03-27-2008, 02:05 PM
A good tuner and proper mods. The stock engine can do that almost all day long with that proper tuning and parts.

WRXCoupe
03-27-2008, 02:25 PM
Awesome! Yeah AP stage 2 with up/down/cat back and the sti tmic/scoop and splitter on the EJ20 is an absolute joy. This car is realy fun to drive right now. It seems like revs and bowerband are lining up perfect. The td04 is spooling great. Over the next two weeks the 16g/deatschworks injectors and Walbro are going in. I am going to try to time it so I can get in to see Scott the next day. Once done the focus will be suspension.

nsvwrx
03-27-2008, 03:08 PM
wait 205 is closed deck?

Cool_____
03-27-2008, 03:11 PM
No it's open deck. EJ22 is closed deck.

WJM
03-27-2008, 03:26 PM
wait 205 is closed deck?

No.

EJ22 is closed deck.

No.

EJ22E and EJ22EZ is open deck. EJ22T/G is closed deck. However, it is rumored that the T designation is incorrect and also the G designation is incorrect. I have seen the EJ22G refered to as EJ22K as the 'correct designation,' but we would have to see the vehicle ID plate on a 1998 22B STi to verify.

However, pretty much everyone has settled on EJ22T being the correct and official designation for the USDM Legacy Turbo engine, 1991~1994.

monk
03-27-2008, 04:14 PM
and now we know... sort of ;)

crashtke
03-27-2008, 05:55 PM
That is the block that a lot of places use for their stroked race motors...The 22 with a bigger bore, different crank, sleeves a lot of times and usually spec C heads that have been worked over. It provides for a pretty rock solid little motor...just never understood if they retain the oil squirters or not.

WJM
03-27-2008, 06:35 PM
Oil squrters are good.

Wahoo i've got internet at the house now!

crashtke
03-28-2008, 07:56 AM
But do they retain them on those high hp builds? I could not find any mention of it.

WJM
03-28-2008, 09:26 AM
Dont know. They should. They atleast attempt to cool the piston.

nicad
03-28-2008, 02:50 PM
lately I've been seeing people close them off for "higher oil pressure" in the built motor forum

I have always left them, cause subaru is smarter than me :)

WJM
03-28-2008, 03:19 PM
lately I've been seeing people close them off for "higher oil pressure" in the built motor forum

I have always left them, cause subaru is smarter than me :)

Yep.

Indeed.

If you dont have enough pressure, removing the squirters is not the answer, something else is wrong.

IBronsenginesarebestbecausetheydontmakeasmuchpress ureasstockandthendestroybearingsandthentheyblameth ehydra

crashtke
03-28-2008, 05:20 PM
lately I've been seeing people close them off for "higher oil pressure" in the built motor forum

I have always left them, cause subaru is smarter than me :)

Gotcha, I have not been paying attention to the EJ22 builds as the one I am building is a 2.5.

slowwrx
03-28-2008, 11:59 PM
How to make 400hp on a stock EJ205.

Install GT30R...plus all the extras...fuel intercooler etc...buy AEM....have Dan at BG tune it....Make 400hp....Profit...or something....

Some EJ205s come with shimless buckets...those you can push pretty hard as far as RPM goes, the ones that have the shim insert tend to spit them out and cause havoc inside your motor.

WJM
03-29-2008, 08:11 AM
All 2002 EJ205's have shims. *most* 2003's went shimless, I've only seen a small handful of 03's that had shims. Everything 2004+ thats DOHC is shimless.

Cool_____
03-30-2008, 11:31 AM
How to make 400hp on a stock EJ205.

Install GT30R...plus all the extras...fuel intercooler etc...buy AEM....have Dan at BG tune it....Make 400hp....Profit...or something....

Some EJ205s come with shimless buckets...those you can push pretty hard as far as RPM goes, the ones that have the shim insert tend to spit them out and cause havoc inside your motor.


Get the same mods and have any reputable tuner tune it and you can get 400 hp. Don't neccesarily have to push Dan.....Topspeed and many others can do the same thing ;)

Batlground
03-30-2008, 12:17 PM
double post

Batlground
03-30-2008, 12:20 PM
There are plenty of tuners that are capable, but I've only ever heard of three that have done it and I"ve only ever seen a dyno sheet from one of them.

slowwrx
03-30-2008, 12:57 PM
Don't neccesarily have to push Dan.....Topspeed and many others can do the same thing ;)

Ill put Dan up against anyone in the southeast on an AEM.... He is just that good. I don't have to push anyone or anything but I've been doing this Subaru thing long enough now that I've got a pretty good idea what works.

Matt

Cool_____
03-30-2008, 01:14 PM
Dan should experiment with the AEM on your bugeye and get the AVCS working. It can be done as the rally cars have it and the AEM is based off the exact same system that WRC uses.

Batlground
03-30-2008, 01:33 PM
Dan should experiment with the AEM on your bugeye and get the AVCS working. It can be done as the rally cars have it and the AEM is based off the exact same system that WRC uses.

It can be done kind of, The AEM is based off of the GEMS unit. We know how it works and we know that we can make it work, the problem is that its duty cycle based and we would have to use the boost control table for the actuator, I want my boost controlled by the AEM and honestly I could care less about the AVCS. Its only got to spool once and thats what the Anti-Lag is for.

The new motor going in my Time Attack car has WRX heads on it because I just don't want the AVCS.

WJM
03-30-2008, 01:40 PM
I'll take some screen shots...

WJM
03-30-2008, 02:03 PM
Here they are.

Getting to it:

http://wjmrallyesport.com/AEM_VVT/get_to_vvt.gif

Valve 1:

http://wjmrallyesport.com/AEM_VVT/VVT_valve_1.gif

Valve 2:

http://wjmrallyesport.com/AEM_VVT/VVT_valve_2.gif


I have a base map and all the base settings for the STi Version 7 and the EVO 9 MIVEC.

Since I came across some STi heads and I kept those cams, I may just make a working AVCS engine running on the AEM.

WJM
03-30-2008, 02:04 PM
The new motor going in my Time Attack car has WRX heads on it because I just don't want the AVCS.

Why no EZ30D?

Cool_____
03-30-2008, 02:10 PM
Why no EZ30D?

Prob cheaper and easier to work with in a short time frame????

WJM
03-30-2008, 02:33 PM
Prob cheaper and easier to work with in a short time frame????

Agreed. But...3.0 vs 2.5! :rofl:

Cool_____
03-30-2008, 02:52 PM
Agreed. But...3.0 vs 2.5! :rofl:

Yeah 3.0 would rock but honestly One Lap is right around the corner!

WJM
03-30-2008, 02:57 PM
yeah, well....lol

Batlground
03-30-2008, 05:18 PM
Why no EZ30D?

Still working on it, its easy to throw 2.5 motors together and theres more demand for the 4 cylinder stuff. We want to keep developing a product our customers are going to use. We will be putting the EZ30R in something but I can't tell you what just yet.

I have another event in mind for the EZ30R and its not ONE LAP

Batlground
03-30-2008, 05:19 PM
Yeah 3.0 would rock but honestly One Lap is right around the corner!

I'm not going on One Lap, with the Job change its just not possible this year. However I've got some big plans...stay tuned.....